Morgan Friedman: Hello everyone, to the latest episode of Client Horror Stories. I’m excited to have Melinda Spaulding with me today. How are you doing, Melinda?

Melinda: I’m great. How are you, Morgan?

Morgan Friedman: I’m in a great mood after Melinda and I spent far too long trying to solve some tech problems, but hopefully they’re solved. If you’re watching us. I mean, we solve them. And with that, I have my bottle of water, not vodka in hand, ready for your exciting horror story. Tell me your favorite client horror story. Melinda. Yes, you actually have a beer. I love it.

Melinda: Absolutely.

Morgan Friedman: You hit a gold star.

Melinda: Very good. You know, I try to please, especially with my horse stories, so let’s see how it goes.

Morgan Friedman: You need some alcohol to talk about it?

Melinda: Oh yes. It was quite painful. I think I still have a little bit of PTSD, so I don’t know for the kind of work that you deal with clients, but I feel like the hardest has always been dealing with procurement and especially when I first met.

And when I first started my business and I had to do it all on my own, that was probably the most intimidating part. I was managing with procurement and getting contracts. But I got my first really big project, I love the client. I was super excited, but the only way I could get it to work was if I got the billing terms and the contract in a certain way because this study is market research study and it was gonna have a lot of honoraria for physicians. So, almost half of the whole cost of the study was in fees. I had to pay out for people to take the survey. So, it was a lot to manage and float. Right. So, of course, I was negotiating with procurement on the contract.

Melinda: At the same time, I’m getting pressure from my client like, Hey, we need to start this. We need to get going. I’m like, I know, but I’ve gotta get the contract terms in place and if I don’t get them structured in a certain way, I won’t get paid. So, I’m trying to juggle all those little pieces.

Morgan Friedman: I like that. So, yeah, client is from the same company as procurement, but the client was just the executive or whomever. So, he also had to deal with procurement on his backend as well.

Melinda: Exactly. And I don’t know if this is how you deal with it, but almost every time I deal with procurement, it’s always email. I never talk to a live person. You know, it’s always the back and forth, red lines on contracts and things like that.

Morgan Friedman: By the way, I think procurement does the email-only strategy for a few reasons. First, they’re a little bit like anonymous trolls on the internet, like when you’re gonna be an asshole, you don’t want anyone to see you or know your real name. Like you and I are having a friendly, fun conversation now. so it’s harder for me to do terrible things to you. You’re like another human. Yeah, I see you. I see you right here. But when it’s like anonymous, all numbers, your full nastiness comes out and it makes hard negotiating easier.

Melinda: This is where the story gets weird and probably a little bit crazy.

Morgan Friedman: Oh, I am so excited.

Melinda: So, we finally get the contract in place, right? And I’m off to the races. I’ve invoiced, I’ve got the contract signed, I’ve got a purchase order, I’m good to go. This was back when my office was in my living room. So, i got the kids to bed, and all of a sudden, I hear my office phone ringing. You know when it’s like, should I answer it? It can’t be good if the office line is ringing after hours. So, of course I go in and I see on the caller ID.

Morgan Friedman: By the way, I just wanna point out this story dates, both of us in age because we have an office line. You had an office line?

Melinda: I did, yeah, with caller id, which was not standard. I had to pay extra for that. So on the caller id, I see the company name and I’m thinking something’s going on, right? So I pick up the phone and it’s the procurement person on the phone talking to me. Uh, we’re gonna call her Becky, because I wanna give her name. And Becky says, ‘Hey Melinda, it’s Becky, I’m gonna cancel your contract and send you a new one because I should never have agreed to those billing terms and I’m gonna get in trouble. So, we’re gonna just go through and do a new contract.’ Now, mind you, the project has already begun. I’ve already invoiced and got the purchase order.

Morgan Friedman: And it had been signed off?

Melinda: Yeah. Everyone has signed. And I was like, I don’t think you can do that, I’m pretty much sure that’s not okay and I don’t think you can do that.’ And she goes on, ‘Oh, but I already had cancelled your contract. I cancelled your purchase order and we won’t be paying your invoice because it doesn’t tie to any purchase order or contract that exists in the system.’ It was like somebody was pranking me and I couldn’t believe it. I was just stammering and couldn’t believe this was happening. So, the weird thing is she actually did it and she made a new contract that night.

Morgan Friedman: So, wait, I also wanna observe. This is typical for procurement in dealing with small players.

Melinda: Mm-hmm. 

Morgan Friedman: And small companies, and I often think they do this on purpose, any excuse to not pay, no matter how sketchy, they will use. Sometimes I think there’s no difference, there’s a saying, ‘Don’t attribute to maliciousness what you can attribute to stupidity’, but sometimes I think that’s just wrong because in practice, there’s no difference between extreme stupidity and maliciousness.

Melinda: There’s no way this is legal either. At this point, because you’re small, what am I gonna do? Get my team of lawyers to go after those people. Exactly. I don’t even have an office. Like I have a landline. Are you kidding me? So anyway, she sends me this contract or whatever, and I’m like, okay, I am freaking out. And I talked to my husband, we’re partners.

Morgan Friedman: A quick question.

Melinda: Yeah.

Morgan Friedman: So, I can understand the situation. How did she wanna change the contract in a way that’s substantially worse for you?

Melinda: Oh yeah, the billing terms, like the way she was changing the billing terms. Basically, I was gonna have to try to cash flow this project. I mean, I would say it was probably about a hundred thousand dollars that was going out to pay physicians to take the survey. And, I don’t have a hundred thousand dollars just sitting around to pay and float. It was really gonna screw me. And at this point, I’ve already started making commitments and got vendors on board to get going.

Morgan Friedman: So interesting. I want to make observation here for our younger readers. A lot of people just think about the dollar amount when negotiating contracts.

Melinda: Yeah. But…

Morgan Friedman: I always make the argument that the terms are just as important. And my silly canonical way of making this point is, selling someone a pencil or a bottle of water for a hundred dollars right now for $100 now is different than selling it for $1 a year for the next 100 years. Your horror story brings out strongly that cashflow matters. Like it’s a world of difference whether you have the money now or in 120 days.

Melinda: Well, in a lot of companies in market research, they get a line of credit and manage it. And I’ve seen a lot of my friends that have done the same thing. You get into trouble because it’s a lot to manage and I don’t think it’s worth it. So, I get the new contract, I feel like I have no recourse. I sign it and I get the PO the next day and I invoice. Now, here’s what’s funny, PO had the original billing terms.

Morgan Friedman: That’s hysterical.

Melinda: What was this whole thing about? So, I just roll with it. It all ends up working out fine. Uh, but at the time, I was really freaking out. I’m thinking I gotta go to the bank and get a line of credit to float payments.

Morgan Friedman: Was it like incompetence on this person’s part?

Melinda: I have no idea because it was crazy. I was sitting there looking at the contract that says 60 days. Here’s the purchase agreement that says 45. I’m like, you know what? This is how it’s gonna be. And I will say that is not the first time it happened or that’s not the last time that it happened. I’ve had other clients since then where the contract terms and purchase agreement terms, and then the day they end up billing are not always the same.

Like, it’s such a crazy way to do it. I’ll say that the lesson learned is my point of contact, the person I was doing the project for and procurement, right? They sit in completely different,  probably in different buildings, different states. Yeah, they could have been in different states.

Now, if anything like that happens to me, I let the tension fester on their end rather than it exists in me. So, I just go back to like the person I’m doing the work for and I’m like, sorry, I’d love to do this project for you, but I am getting the runaround on procurement, so you may have to find somebody else. And, I think that it only comes with some experience to realize if they’ve gone through all that work and they wanna work with me, let them deal with the craziness on their company’s side. Like, I don’t wanna be brought into that. I don’t think I had the confidence to know how to do that. However, many years ago, this was before I had to color my hair every other week. Uh, but now I know, like the tension, let that tension exist on their end and let it work for you.

Morgan Friedman: So, I try to get at least one new lesson out from every episode because I’ve done maybe 80 of these now. It’s a lot of work, it’s like making sure you document it or come clear on the terms. And you just made a really good point that I don’t think has come out in any of the previous 79 or so episodes. That lesson is letting them fight it out on their side. Said more simply, you don’t have to solve every single problem. Yeah, and I feel like a lot of young professionals and young people, in general, I wanna be competent. I want to show the world I am competent and want to do things. And as a result of that, I kind of put the problems of the world on my shoulder.

And I think you see this in like the political world, like famously, 18 year olds are the political activists. But I think a business professional version of that same instinct is the young professional says, there’s a problem, I need to solve it. Even though the problem is like deep in the heart of how their company works between two different people and two different departments of their company. And it takes a lot of experience to realize, let them sort it out and they’ll come to me. Your guy really needs to start tomorrow. He will get procurement to make sure that it starts tomorrow.

Melinda: Yeah. Do you think it’s also tied to negotiation. We don’t really negotiate, I think negotiation has been a lost skill. It’s almost been all kind of digital. I learned to get better at negotiating and asking more questions. I think you’re right, like solving the problem, there’s one thing I like, I wanna solve the problem and move on and get going, but it’s also like I could have just asked a lot more questions.

Morgan Friedman: You know what’s interesting? Less excellent topic. I’m so excited to brainstorm this because I haven’t really thought about this. Sorry for being offensive, to everyone in the audience, the art of picking up girls and younger me 20 years ago, at a different stage of my life, I really had a lot of fun doing things like going to borrowers and just going up to people I didn’t know and talk to them. It was scary and nerve wracking. For young ones these days, it’s 100% apps. So, I was talking to a young friend of mine recently, he is like a 26-year-old. He saw some cute girl in a bar and went up to her and started to say something , like flirty with her and she looked at him and said, are you trying to pick me up? Can you come in and do that again so I can record it to post it on my TikTok?

Morgan Friedman: Oh my God.

Melinda: Oh no.

Morgan Friedman: But like, it’s like the art of sales, going to somebody you don’t know, and having that scary conversation to try to get them excited to go out with you. It is so dead today that if somebody does the same, it becomes a TikTok moment. And, I feel like there’s this parallel to your point or 20 years ago, there was a much more direct approach where you have these hard conversations and you sort of like it, it’s an art, you have to learn the art of not losing your shit when people push back with difficult things. You have to learn the strategic things of when people say no, you can only do it for half as much. You have to learn the strategies. Okay then for that much we can then do this, but not that. Yeah and now everything is through email, it’s indirect. Then, no one learns this useful skill. My final comment on this question would be, I think the trend is happening. It’s true. I think you’d make a great observation here. I think it’s a part of what we could call the California ation of the US or the California ation of the world. And what I mean by that is I’m from New York and I lived a long time in California, so I know how to do business in both and I get it, but they have wild different styles. Where are you from, by the way?

Melinda: I’m right in the middle. I’m in Indianapolis.

Morgan Friedman: You’re in, by the way, I know zero about the Midwest. Um, fly over. Yeah.

Melinda: Yeah.   

Morgan Friedman: So, you can tell me about the middle analysis, but the New York style is to be like blunt and brutal. Oh, this is a terrible contract. I’m never doing this. And it’s like to be blunt, brutal, and difficult to your face. In California, on the other hand, in both LA and San Francisco, there’s this very different style. No one ever wants to be the person that said no to the next Facebook or the next superstar. So, there’s this culture of always smiling, being nice, saying yes, never saying the no, and I remember from 20 years ago, wildly different styles. But what’s interesting is that’s happened over the last 20 years, I feel like even in New York, everyone everywhere is kind of adopting this sort of California style of just being nice. But when they’re not around, like doing the asshole thing as a New Yorker, neither is ideal, but I far prefer the New York style because then at least you know what’s happening in California. The California style is to give you a false hope. When you’re trying to raise money, a potential investor will will be like, no this business will never work. Here are the reasons. Go fix that. Good luck. But in California they’ll be like, you know, you have a great idea, you’re doing so much, Let’s have a meeting again in a few months. And so you’re like, wow, he’s still on my MQL list of leads. 

Melinda: I’d rather hear the blunt side. Yeah. I have clients on both coasts. So, I can see that for sure, Midwest, we’re just passive-aggressive, so we might be nice for a little while and then we might stare you down and you know, just brood about it for a bit.

So I think part of it is like that dynamic of everything’s gone, digital and faceless. And so it’s easier to not think, you don’t break up with somebody, you block them. Like you don’t have that hard conversation. Yes. But I also think, especially for kind of younger generation, COVID did a mess. Like it just, you know, we had this isolation and we got used to of it. We almost like it. I don’t know, as a catalyst to make it even more where you’re not direct, you don’t have face-to-face conversations. I have two teenagers, I guess My daughter just turned 13 and I have an 18-year-old son. And, so it was interesting watching my son be a teenager in COVID then coming out of COVID. Right. And he that one scenario, where he broke up with his girlfriend. And he started snapping another girl and I was like, where’d this world come from? She is at your school? He’s like, no, I ran into her. I met her at like a Mexican place where I go to get tacos with my friends. And I was like, well, how did you get her snap? He goes on and says, I went up and asked her and it was just so old school. Congratulations. Like, you know, did she TikTok it?

Morgan Friedman: You’re teaching him, you’re teaching him.

Melinda: Well, I did. Well, no, I think hormones taught him well. I was just gotta hear about it later. But, you know, it was that thing when he’s like, I’m gonna go talk to her. But it was such a big deal because these kids, they know they had a whole two three years where they didn’t go to dances. They didn’t like go to the movies. They didn’t go do stuff. They did it all at home. It’s very different.

Morgan Friedman: Yeah, excellent example and great story. And what’s also interesting is these patterns fall into much bigger trends of kind of making what we could call the procurement of the world. Yeah. Where like procurement, you can just be like an asshole. ’cause it’s all anonymous. You don’t know the people. You just write and do not do nice things in that sink. Guess what? Not that different than like anonymous trolls on Reddit. The tip, you have corporate authority and you’re socially sanctioned to be like that.

Melinda: So I will give a little bit of hope though. So, one of my other clients, where I am kind of the misfit vendor I guess. And I’ve known this group for a really long time, and they’ll gimme projects because they don’t know who else this could go to. It doesn’t quite fit our normal realm of projects, so we’re gonna give it to you. And one of the projects they gave me was actually a research project for procurement. They wanted me to interview their top vendors, the vendors they’re spending the most money with, and understand how they could improve their process. And they wanted me to do the interviews as a third party so that they were comfortable sharing. ’cause I kept it anonymous and then brought it back. And I first thought it was really great that they asked for the project. Now I will say, when I shared the results, let’s say there’s 10 in the room, two of them are like, well then we won’t pay them. But the other eight were like, no, this is really good feedback that we were not gonna get otherwise. And, like there was something in the process where it wasn’t transparent, like maybe it was how much money was left on your PO or something like that.

And, the reason they kept it so it wasn’t transparent is that belief of, well, they’ll spend the whole amount. And what, you know, the suppliers came back with was, I already know what the total amount is. ’cause you open the PO based on the proposal I sent you. What telling me what’s left lets me know that you’ve actually got all my invoices and that we’re on the system. And so when I get it, they’re like, we didn’t think of it that way. And I’m like. Anyway, I was really impressed. I think some companies do the right things and should be applauded and like rewarded, just not all of them do. Or there’s people within the companies that don’t always do the right thing.

Morgan Friedman: Yeah, I agree. So what’s interesting also is procurement is kind of like microcosm of civilization. Like in civilization, you have lots and lots of really good people, most people are good, but just caught up in this terrible system constructiveness that incentivizes you to do terrible things. Most people kind of end up doing not nice things.

Melinda: Yeah. Well you, what is it? You do what your reward system is. If your reward system is negotiating people down or so many contracts in certain terms, that’s what you’re gonna do, right?

Morgan Friedman: Yeah. It’s true. I wonder I don’t know of any large companies that have come up with a different system. So, like this procurement system, as terrible as it is for everyone involved, seems to be ubiquitous above a certain size. I supposedly wonder if there’s any sort of alternative

Melinda: Oh, that’s interesting. I can think for my larger clients, it’s harder and more anonymous, meaning I don’t know who I can contact and like that, the smaller clients I have much less so like, you know, I mean I have some clients that don’t even have a procurement department, like they’re just like handwriting a check, which is great. I mean it’s a better relationship right.

Morgan Friedman: A check that’s almost as old-fashioned as a cord phone.

Melinda: I still get a decent amount of checks. I’ll take whatever, you can pay me however you want, like I don’t care, and sure I’ll take a check.

Morgan Friedman: I like these issues. I like this general category of dealing with procurement. I wish I had seen a solution or another way, it just makes sense. Once a company reaches a certain size, you’re like, oh we’re paying all these different people all over the place in lots of different ways. Let’s organize it and centralize it. I would wanna do the same. So like, creating a procurement department is natural. And then once it’s organized and centralized, it is kind of natural to be like, who are we overpaying?

How can we save 1%. It’s like a natural way for that department to grow. So, the procurement of the world might be an inevitable evil and it might be a challenge for each of us as individuals and as small companies to learn how to survive that.

Melinda: For sure, I think one of my passion projects is I like to help, l started my own business. It has been 17 years almost.. And so one of the things that I like to do is help other people start their own business, right? Like there’s plenty of work for all of us. you know, what I’ve found is I’d rather have a partner in my corner than a competitor. You know, I have like kind of a standard template contract, that I worked with a lawyer on and we kind of took some of all of my contracts, we created like a dummy version and I share that with people as they’re getting ready to get started and I’m like, this is what it looks like and this is what this means.

Uh, this is kind of where I’ve been able to negotiate. Um, this is standard. This is stuff you don’t know, right? The other big piece that procurement normally pushes for besides the billing terms is insurance. Business insurance and liability insurance. And so I’ve kind of organized, this is standard. And you know, find out what this is gonna cost you like before you get started on your own, go out, talk to insurance agents, get a quote. So, you know what it is and you’re not surprised. It’s all those little surprises that I think are just unnecessary stress in an already stressful situation when you’re starting your business, when you have no money coming in the door, you’re looking for clients, you finally get one, and then it’s like just more problems. It’s one of those things, i think it’s like helping a few people start a company and they do really well, it’s like, that’s great, right? Like it’s paying it forward.

Morgan Friedman: My favorite piece of advice I often give to younger professionals to help out is whenever procurement contacts me out of the blue saying, like, uh, we have an RFP would love for you to do, we’re considering you for this project. And would love for you to put in a bid. I always advise people, no way in hell is it worth a second of your time because younger me wasted a zillion hours doing that and experienced it. You never get it. And then, eventually what you kind of figure out is, yeah, there are all these rules and policies to prevent corruption that you have to get so many bids. But it turns out every single time they always know who they wanna hire. So, when procurement contacts you, it’s really because they just wanna check the box that they got in and they got another proposal.

Melinda: Yeah. Instead of it coming from like the client directly, like the person who’d be working with directly. Absolutely.

Morgan Friedman: Yeah. So, I think there are a whole bunch of tips. Someone should do a whole podcast series, just dealing with procurement.

Melinda: I think you could do a whole like educational series on like how do you start your business, but you be good at what you’re good at, and then let’s help you with these other things.

Morgan Friedman: You know? Very interesting and fun to interview someone that works in procurement to hear the other side.

Melinda: Oh yeah. You hear all the stuff they hate about us. Right. It’s like it’s gonna be called the supplier horror stories.

Morgan Friedman: Yeah. These kids dunno what they’re doing.

Melinda: And they wanna call me.

Morgan Friedman: Yeah, yeah. And they keep on telling all these things to the actual person they’re working with, but not us. So we don’t know what’s happening. Everyone always feels left out.

Melinda: I will accept the feedback graciously if you ever get them on the podcast.

Morgan Friedman: It’s fun hearing both sides and you know, I’ll definitely admit, I often think working in procurement kind of has to just like drive the life out of you, has to like remove that spark. I think it’s the worst part about pro working in procurement and dealing with procurement to, and we’ll end this episode by wrapping back to the beginning as one of the first points that you said when you signed it. Then they changed the terms and as soon as you said that, I was like sketchy, but I think you did on purpose, which is this systematized sketchiness. I also think this is another way I’ve matured over the course of my career which is younger me, used to think, uh, every once in a while someone’s incompetent or corrupt, like not everyone is equally honest or equally competent, but over the years you realize that it’s much darker than that. Because very often these sort of negative and illegal things are completely systematized or, yeah. And like on purpose, we just sign a contract, then we go back and we change the terms be up because we have all the powers and that’s how we can save another 2%. And like the abject outright systemization of it just takes it to another level. And that’s what happens.

Melinda: Yeah, I think that’s right. And then,, I don’t know. I’ll say, I dunno about older me is kinda like, then I just don’t work with those companies. Like, you know, I think once you get enough experience and confidence, you’re like, if it doesn’t feel right and it just doesn’t meet my ethics, then that’s just not who I work with.

Morgan Friedman: I’m the same way. And also I think it takes experience to be able to smell the sketchiness.

Melinda: Yeah,

Morgan Friedman: because like younger me and probably younger you would see these same things that we see would’ve been like, oh whatever, just bureaucracy. That’s how bureaucracies are and I would’ve gone with a low saying, yeah. That’s bureaucracies now like Sinus sketchiness, another sinus sketches another sinus sketchiness.

Melinda: Yeah. It doesn’t smell right. You don’t, you don’t wanna be caught up in that.

Morgan Friedman: And by the way, this is, uh, to wrap up tying into another topic. This is one of the reasons why a lot of people think AI will take over the world, but I am not quite sure about that because there’s this sense of smell that you can’t really codify into technology. There’s just all these, like, the way people glance, the way they look, the things that they don’t say, the speed with, with which they say things, what they emphasize and what they don’t. That is much subtler than just a computer optimization algorithm.

Melinda: I would like to believe that to be true. I have got, you know, colleagues are fearful that in our industry, AI is gonna take a lot of things over, but I’m like, so much of what I do is interpretation and looking at when data doesn’t align and finding out what the story is there like what’s the insight and AI is not gonna be able to do that. And, you know, it doesn’t like when data doesn’t align, right? It decides to choose one or the other or throws it out.

Morgan Friedman: I agree, and I’ll go another step. It literally can because, because in so often when you see all this data, like what you have to do is you have to look at the data and construct a story that makes sense to explain the data. But the way you do that, I, I don’t even know what you do other than the market research, but, but it’s, I’m also extrapolating for myself, a lot of what I do is mm-hmm. I look at spread use of numbers and I say to myself, what had to have happened in order to explain these numbers?

Melinda: Yeah.

Morgan Friedman: And, it’s so often it’s just these like.

Morgan Friedman: Wild left field weed. This person was actually going through a divorce, so then he wasn’t paying attention to this. So then that happened and there’s just like so much context that it’s literally impossible for a chat bot to know the context to know what’s actually happening.

Melinda: So, okay. Time for one more funny story, maybe on the same side.

Morgan Friedman: Oh, I love it. Always time for a funny story.

Melinda: So I, like this is gonna date me a bit, but anyway, I talk at the local high school here to their ap.. We’ve already dated ourselves multiple times.

Morgan Friedman: I know it is like still happening.

Melinda: So, uh, so I talked to the local AP stats class about like careers you could do, and market research relies on a lot of stats. And one of the things I try to do is like talk about things that are more exciting than just, you know, doing basic statistics. So, I give an example of like what, how you kinda do critical thinking and so I show a Google search and it says, is work. from home or remote working more productive? And then the first thing the search engine says Yes, from Harvard or Stanford, then I say, is remote working less productive? And the answer is yes, from Stanford, right? And so I was telling this and you know, you’re with a whole bunch of high school students, which is totally intimidating anyway. And, this kid in the front, I said, you know. Why do you think this happens? And this kid in the front who I thought was asleep, ’cause he had sunglasses on and like ski bomb, I spicoli, this is what’s gonna date me. He just was like my s sp sp in the, uh, in the audience right from fast, you know, fast times at Mont High Fast time.

Yeah. And so he’s sitting there and he got sunglasses on and he raises his hand and I’m like, yes. And to myself, I’m thinking you’re awake. I was like, what’s the answer? And he goes. Google doesn’t tell you the truth. Google tells you what you want to hear, and I’m like, I have hope for this generation, like, thank you. Um, but that’s it, right? Like the AI that whatever it’s learning on, it’s looking for the answer you want, not truth. And so we’ve kind of missed that plot, but maybe the teenagers haven’t. Maybe they’re so grown up with it that they know what the shortcomings are and we’re just. totally befuddled and fearful.

Morgan Friedman: I love this story. Great, great anecdote and way to end the episode. And what funny footnote that I’ll add to that is we’ve been joking in this whole episode about our like, landline references dating us. I think these last five minutes of our talk were like, we just went on this like semi-related AI tangent. I think when people watch this episode 20 years in the future, it’s gonna date us wildly. Oh my God, do, do you guys remember 20 years ago or before we were born when AI was brand new and they’re actually debating whether it’d be good or bad and they like 20 years in the future when they have like AI. Ear buds, just like AI is, like their, their entire existence. 

Malinda: And they’ll be like, wow, wow. People were actually wondering, who are these old people?

Morgan Friedman: Yeah. Wow. 20 years old. People were actually wondering, uh, and had moral questions about how, uh, about what it would went into that it was so cute the way people thought 20 years ago,

Melinda: Aren’t they?

Morgan Friedman: Cool. And with that super interesting episode. I love the tangents, love the procurement insights. I might go look out for someone from procurement to interview. But yeah, Melinda, this was lots of fun, really enjoyable, and everyone who’s made a sense, I hope you learned as much as we did and had as much fun as we did.

Morgan Friedman: Thank you for watching.

Melinda: Thanks.